Episode #102: Persistence and Place with Charlene Burke

Apr 10

About This Episode

In this episode, Nat Kalbach chats with longtime Jersey City resident and preservation advocate Charlene Burke to discuss how persistent civic engagement can transform neighborhoods. Charlene shares her journey from publishing a magazine about New Jersey history to becoming a driving force behind the West Bergen-East Lincoln Park Historic District. Her practical wisdom about speaking up at community meetings and showing up consistently reminds us that one person really can make a difference.

Meet Charlene Burke

*Charlene Burke and The West Bergen /Lincoln Park Neighborhood Coalition receiving the Ted Conrad Preservationist Award by the Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy*

Charlene Burke was born in Jersey City's Margaret Hague Hospital and has been a Hudson County resident for most of her life. After growing up between urban Jersey City and at the time more rural Secaucus, she returned to Jersey City where she became a property owner, grant writer, and community activist. She has been instrumental in numerous preservation initiatives, particularly the successful designation of the West Bergen-East Lincoln Park Historic District in 2015.

Key Insights

Persistence matters: "Be persistent, but polite. You will get what you want in time because you keep plugging away at it."
One voice can make change: "One person can make a difference. You may think at times that you need to have a whole army behind you, but if you have all the documentation or all the persuasive arguments, you can make the difference."
We are the government: People fail to realize they are the government; showing up to compliment as well as complain makes for better civic engagement.
Do your research: Before speaking at public meetings, arm yourself with facts and background information.
Libraries are underutilized resources: Libraries provide access to grant databases and resources that can help fund community initiatives.
Parks shape neighborhoods: Lincoln Park attracted investment to the West Bergen area and continues to give the neighborhood its character.

Visual Documentation

Yesterday Today In New Jersey Magazines - courtesy of Charlene Burke

West Bergen-East Lincoln Park Historic District map showing the boundaries designated in 2015. Courtesy of Jersey City Planning Department

One of the The Lincoln Park "Summer Houses" (gazebos) mentioned by Charlene in their original appearance. They were altered in the 1970s. Postcard by Nat Kalbach

Related Resources

Explore Further

Look for additional articles "The Power of Persistence: Lessons from Charlene Burke" and "Finding Your Voice at Public Meetings" on Nat Kalbach’s Substack "Nat's Sidewalk Stories" in the next two weeks, featuring additional photos of the historic neighborhood and practical tips for civic engagement.

Coming Up Next

Stay tuned for our conversation with Kelly Carroll on community-based preservation and how even unsuccessful preservation efforts can strengthen neighborhoods in unexpected ways.

Connect with Me

Music: Our theme music is "How You Amaze Me," composed by Jim Kalbach and performed by Jim Kalbach, Bryan Beninghove, Charlie Siegler, and Pat Van Dyke.

Support the Show: Subscribe to the podcast and sign up for Nat's Substack to receive additional stories and visuals that complement each conversation.

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Nat's Sidewalk Stories explores the intersection of place, community, and storytelling through conversations with practitioners, community leaders, and local changemakers. New episodes release on the 2nd and 4th Thursdays of each month through August, with a break in September before Season 2 begins in October.

Full Transcript

Note: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and readability while preserving the conversation's content and meaning.

[00:00:00] Nat Kalbach: Welcome to Nat's Sidewalk Stories. I'm Nat Kalbach, an artist and storyteller exploring the places, people, and hidden histories that make our neighborhoods vibrant. Join me as we walk these streets together and discover the stories beneath our feet. Today I'm chatting with my neighbor and friend, Charlene Burke, whose dedication to Jersey City spans decades.

Charlene has been a familiar face at public hearings in Jersey City and a driving force behind a historic district, right where I live and a mentor to many of us wanting to make a difference in our community.

What I love about Charlene is her practical wisdom about speaking up and [00:01:00] showing up something that changed how I approach my own civic engagement. We'll talk about her journey from publishing a magazine about New Jersey history to becoming that persistent voice at community meetings who reminds us all that one person really can make a difference.

Hey, Charlene, I'm so happy to have you. Thank you for being here.

Charlene Burke: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here with you as well. I always enjoy our conversations.

Nat Kalbach: Me too. I'm a big fan of you and I cannot wait to hear what you will tell us, but would you mind introducing yourself to the people that might not know you and tell us a tiny bit about yourself.

Charlene Burke: Well, my name is Charlene Burke, and I was born in the Margaret Hague. Way back when in the middle of the last century. It feels so long ago now, and I have been a resident of Hudson County [00:02:00] for the majority of my life. Most of it actually in Jersey City from the very beginning. And then, really my formative years were growing up in Secaucus, which was a wonderful experience because at that point Secaucus was nothing like it is today, but it was really quite rural and so for Urban Center it was like growing up in the country.

And yet my grandmother who lived in Jersey City and downtown, was always where we would be parked by my mother, who was a working mom. So my sister and myself spent many, many hours in Jersey City, and I used to think the whole world was just one block. There were so many kids on one block, you didn't need to know who lived around the corner.

It was a wonderful [00:03:00] growing up experience because one foot was in the country and one foot was in the city.

Nat Kalbach: I love that and I also love that I learned from you actually, how to say, wait, you say "Sea Caucus"?

Charlene Burke: Yes. Very good.

Nat Kalbach: So that I learned now from you.

So Charlene doesn't live too far from me. And I know her, I've seen her many years ago. Oftentimes seeing her at City public hearings, where she consistently spoke on topics that I was interested in. And then our connection deepened when I joined the Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy where she oftentimes helped out with her knowledge and being on the advisory board. And we even had the opportunity to organize a panel discussion on historic preservation, together last year. So I learned a lot about Charlene and I was just so excited because she has many, many skills, many interests.

But, [00:04:00] you said that you came back to Jersey City, or you lived most of your life in Jersey City, but being at the heart of so many initiatives that have shaped our neighborhood how would you describe your relationship to Jersey City?

Charlene Burke: Sometimes confrontational. Sometimes supportive and certainly always, I guess, directional. In that I bring to them ideas or suggestions. No matter what level of government it is, whether it's planning or history or the parks department, it's if I see things, I always bring it back to the city to kind of suggest this might be, this might be workable here, especially this is the problem, we haven't addressed it. This might be the solution. So I would say at times. Yes, I can be a pain, but I can also be a promise [00:05:00] to the city.

Nat Kalbach: Oh, I love that. And I don't think you're a pain, huh?

Charlene Burke: That's because I don't give you the calls that I.

Nat Kalbach: That's true. I was probably good. So, as I said, Charlene, we are actually living in a historic district and your own home has a very rich history. Tell us a little bit about your house, if you don't mind sharing? And how did living in a historic house influence your perspective just on neighborhood preservation?

Charlene Burke: Well, it all stems back to my grandmother who lived downtown Jersey City in a brick row. So that was where my appreciation of the old really began. And then my first house more in Greenville, that was also an older home built in the early 1900s. So then when looking around for a, [00:06:00] having lived on Duncan Avenue, the block that I currently live on now, I lived in the apartments across the street and always looked down on this house with my husband and we always admired it.

It was such a stately home. Always seemed to be very permanent in the way it looked. It had shrubbery but not really flowers, so it didn't change much in the seasons. So it always looked the same and we always admired it. So, 'cause it's a brick home. And it turned out that we were looking around for investment property and learned that the owner had passed away.

And then, we approached the executrix who was the woman next door, and we ended up eventually buying the home because it was up for sale. And then that's when I really started to delve into its history. I didn't know [00:07:00] much about its history before then, but then learned that it was built by one of the premier brick makers in Jersey City, one of the Washburn brothers, of which many brick homes are constructed of Washburn bricks here. And he built this for his family.

And then he unfortunately passed away shortly after building it. And living in it for only four years. And his widow sold it to another family that was very prominent in the city called the Swenson's.

And Johan Swenson owned a dry dock in downtown Jersey City, very big dry dock company on the Morris Canal. And, so they owned it and their descendants all the way until 1999, and then I bought it in 2000 and have lived here since.

Nat Kalbach: That is so [00:08:00] amazing. So like 25 years.

Charlene Burke: Yes, 25. It's amazing how that time flies.

Nat Kalbach: Wow. That is such a great story. But yeah, you said that your interest in history and old things came or stemmed from your grandmother. And you also told me once that you actually published a subscription magazine, which was called The Yesterday Today dedicated to New Jersey history. So what inspired you to start documenting these stories when you did the magazine, and what surprised you most about what you discovered while you did that?

Charlene Burke: Well, I at one of my many careers of, 'cause I did wear many professional hats throughout my career. And I did work for the Jersey Journal for a short time and recognized that there was a lot [00:09:00] going on in New Jersey that wasn't taking care of their historic sites. And a high school buddy and myself, she suggested that we start this newspaper that draws attention to the historic sites in New Jersey that weren't being taken care of by the state.

So we did, we began this small publication. It was only produced four times a year. It was a tabloid, and so it was easy and inexpensively for us to create and publish. And we got writers to write the stories and it was drawing attention to New Jersey's rich history, and also doing the side attention to the state's, the states, taking care of, or actually not taking care of some of their historic sites. And [00:10:00] yet there were many of the cities or townships that were restoring their city hall that were restoring public buildings. So we had a state that was not willing to invest in it, but we had our municipalities that were investing in it. So showing the overall readership: Yes, we all wanted to save our older buildings. They were a testament to our past and our accomplishments, and yet the state wasn't doing the investing. So we did that for a number of years, almost 10 years. And then it got to be very expensive.

But I was not a big fan, I like old buildings, but I was not a big fan of history because to me that was a very dry subject in school. Now I was the one who had to visit all of the sites in the state [00:11:00] and look for advertisers or other connections, and I got to travel the whole state from all the way from High Point to Cape May and really started to appreciate how rich our state is not only in environments but in history. And when you actually are in a place and understanding its history, it's quite different than just reading about it. So to experience Washington crossing the Delaware, which they reenacted most every year, is just different than when you read about it in a book.

So that was quite enlightening to me and really hooked me deeply about history that I had not really felt before. And I felt then we were on a mission because the more we were able to get people [00:12:00] out of the cities or out of their house and into a historic place and actually immerse themselves in the surroundings of what took place, the battlefields, Princeton Battlefield or Monmouth Battlefield. Those places, when you go there, it's like Gettysburg. You feel the spirits come up from the ground and really envelop you in what took place there quite different and really quite amazing. History to me was dead dusty and dated.

Nat Kalbach: It's so funny. So, experiencing it through the place that was something that you like, really realized is very important in order to actually connect with history and find it interesting.

Charlene Burke: Yes. I think that for many people just to read it, because historians can be quite persnickety if you know about, oh, it's not July 5th, it's July 4th, or, you know, it's this year and not that year. If you get it wrong, they get a little bent out of shape. Whereas when you go to a place, you're more likely to remember those kinds of nuances about a story as opposed to just trying to memorize it out of a book.

Nat Kalbach: That makes so much sense. I, I feel that is so true. And I think many people can relate to that. But besides that you are also very connected to the community of Jersey City through, several entities that you have been working for nonprofit organizations neighborhood association and park collision.

How has your vision of what makes community meaningful evolved over the years that you have been, involved in Jersey City? Or like, where does that come from that there's an urge to be part of the community and foster that and help or, or be of [00:14:00] service.

Charlene Burke: I'll tell you the biggest change that occurred, I think, was when I first was involved back in 2000, when Jersey City was selling off. At that point in 2000, late 2000, I had an investment property that was within the special improvement district of McGinley Square, and they were, the city was selling off all of the public parking lots to developers to build buildings on, so public parking for commercial districts were going away, which I felt was crucial, a crucial component of a commercial district because.

Not enough people in the surrounding area are always able to support all the stores there. You may need others who come from elsewhere to visit that area to support that store. That was my thinking at the time, and so I really thought.

That [00:15:00] going to city council meetings or to a parking authority meeting, et cetera, was me voicing out my opinions as a property owner and a concerned citizen.

Over the years by doing all of this, I really feel that I am much more a part of the government than just a person coming to a government meeting to share my thoughts or have my objections heard. That's why I said to you earlier, I as much bring things to the city as much as I am maybe at times am confrontational with the city.

If I see positive things that may provide solutions, I share them with the city because I really feel that what a lot of people fail to realize is they are the government. All of these people who work for the [00:16:00] municipality, they're employees of. The government, which is the entire entity of Jersey City residents and those people, if you recognize that you are much more a part of it, you will participate in it more.

Yes, you can come and complain, but you should also come and compliment if things are going right. You should show up at a city council meeting as much to say, I like what happened here. This has been a positive experience in my neighborhood. Otherwise, all the city council members or all of the elected officials or even those appointed as the head of departments, only hear the complaints.

And like anything, if you just are going to be the brunt of criticism, it doesn't make you, a happy [00:17:00] worker. So it's nice when things go well to also share that, even if it's via email. But the point is I think people fail to realize that they need to be more involved. You know, I even say it on a simple level.

Let's take a street sweeper. Yes, the street sweeper goes by once a week or twice a week, depending, but you know what? It never hurts to get out there with a broom and clean up in front of your house as well. Just because the city provides a service does not let you off the hook of being a participant in keeping your neighborhood clean.

Nat Kalbach: Yeah, I agree. I think that is sometimes weird when people say, well, that's what I paid taxes for. But, let me go back to the civic engagement because I think that's very, very important what you said. You have become like a mentor to many women that are interested in civic engagement, including me and a mutual friend Shirin. I know you were, you were like, no, no, that's not true, but it is true. What are the most common barriers that you see that prevent people from getting involved in their communities?

Charlene Burke: Hesitation for one. Public speaking definitely. I mean, just getting up there and saying anything gives you butterflies in the stomach, and believe me, it does me as well. I mean, just because you've been up there numerous times doesn't mean it, you're not necessarily nervous about what you're going to say.

People also don't do enough research on their subject before they get up and speak so that this way they're armed with facts, and that's really important. Before I make some calls or make a public statement, I may make a few calls to find out all of the information that I need, the background [00:19:00] information so that I speak from a, a point of knowledge.

Not, not that I suppose this is the way it is, but it is the way it is and let me lay it out. I never get angry, because if it, delivery is very important if you are persistent, but polite. That's what I tried to call myself. Polite, but persistent. You will get what you want in time because you keep plugging away at it.

It's, and that is what a lot of people don't realize. Once, twice, then they quit. You know what? In sales, one of the jobs that I, one of the hats I wore in my professional life it's about five or six times. You may have to approach a subject before you get what you want, so just think of it when you hear no, [00:20:00] whether it's from the council or from a department head.

It could be a bad day for them. And you know what? Maybe things aren't going right and you're just gonna be the one they're gonna say no to. So give it some time and come back again and make a persuasive argument. If you think you're right and you have something to say and something should be done and you have all the right ducks in a row, then make your argument again and. See what happens, but don't let it go. If you think it's people just give up too quickly.

Nat Kalbach: So basically you're saying. You need to be prepared. You need to have some knowledge of the facts, like it's not just speaking out of your emotional, like you need to know what's going on. And then also be friendly, like have some decorum, and be [00:21:00] persistent.

Charlene Burke: Yes, and the persistent, I stress because too many people give up too soon.

Nat Kalbach: Yeah, that's a good point. It's like, oh yeah, I only have this one meeting where I can voice something and I have three minutes. Okay. I give up. I couldn't, I couldn't bring it on.

Charlene Burke: Yes. And one thing I will say is that one person can make a difference. You may think at times that you need to have a whole army behind you, but if you have all the documentation or all the persuasive arguments, you can make the difference. You don't need an army of people behind you.

Nat Kalbach: Yeah, but so you brought up an interesting point because I have that, too. I don't have a problem speaking in a room full with people that I know and I, or I have taught a lot of students throughout my life all over the world, and I don't feel, I'm a little bit nervous, but not like super intimidated.

But the very first times. I still have that. What? Then I had to go up to the microphone and granted, I do my research, but then I still am very, very nervous. People from government, even though they're people, there's a microphone, you know, you're getting recorded, you don't wanna screw it up. You know, there are people behind you. It's very intimidating. So, besides knowledge and facts are very good tip that make you more secure in what you wanna say, but what other tips would you have for people that are nervous about public speaking.

Charlene Burke: [00:23:00] Couple of big, deep breaths. Don't think that whatever you are going to make in terms of your points, keep it shorter than what you. Then the timeframe that you have. Because what happens is sometimes you think you need to make a lot of points. Sometimes it's much better to make fewer points, but they have, you've given them more emphasis.

So pick the highlight ones that are really important. Let the other secondary ones, you can always follow anything up with an email to all those various people that, you want to communicate to, to explain further. But you've made the major points and let it go at that, and that way you relax in front of that podium because you're not feeling that pressure of the time.

Then, 'cause you've only going to make those few major points and tell and tell them at the end, you'll follow it up with an email. Email with additional ones that aren't being said at the moment.

Nat Kalbach: [00:24:00] That is such a brilliant tip, to really don't try to hone in all of your arguments and your ideas of how to do that. But concentrate on the highlights or one point, and you could also, I guess like if you have more people that are with you on the topic and have the same idea or the same goal, you could divide who is going to say which point, or do you think it's better that everyone is kind of bringing the same big highlight?

Charlene Burke: No, it actually is good. If you have a group to have diverse points of view being proposed or highlighted so that this way the council, like any of us, I mean, if you're going to hear the same thing over and over again from a group of people, what happens? We all, our ears shut down and we don't hear them anymore.

So, I mean, just relate to, [00:25:00] if you were to sit up at that podium, what would you be hearing?

Nat Kalbach: Yeah, that's a good point. And they've been oftentimes sitting there for several hours. It is so great. Thank you.

Let me go back for a moment to history and preservation again. We talked about that this year marks actually the 20th anniversary of our historic district, which is called West Bergen-East Lincoln Park. It is the newest, historic district, you were a big, big part of making this happen. I know you're always like, no, I don't wanna say that, but yes. So looking back, what were the biggest challenges that you faced during the designation process?

Charlene Burke: Well, just a small correction here. It's only 10 years. 'cause 2015 is when we finally had gotten it. Into a historic district, although it almost began 10 years [00:26:00] before that, in which we were going for a grant for hiring a consultant to write the nomination. So the, the biggest obstacle was initially the city because they were not much interested in creating more historic districts because it meant that new development was not going to happen in those given areas.

And the city seems to thrive on new development, whereas for me, I was seeing what was going on in downtown Jersey City for all those areas that were not protected. Everything was getting demolished in order to create newer high rises. Those historic districts that were there were obviously protected, so my [00:27:00] concern was eventually that development was going to fill in all of downtown, and I better start working on getting my neighborhood protected because we, especially, as you know, Nat, we have very large lots and as a result, these larger houses on the larger lots, were going to be eyed by developers as the next apartment building.

Knock down that one family house or two family house and I can build a 50 unit apartment building. So there was some threat on Bentley Avenue that certainly was stopped in its tracks, but then, we really started that effort for a historic district to protect it because of all of the houses in the city.

This was the area where [00:28:00] all of the homes are individually built by different architects and. They all have different styles, but they all are very grand. And why would the city just preserve what were cold water flats downtown Jersey City, which is what most of them were, except around Van Vorst Park or a Hamilton Park. For a long time this area was not considered a very good place to live necessarily. So as a result, the value of these larger homes were very depressed and certainly many people who had families, they looked at them as a great opportunity to have a yard and a parking a driveway, and, and they were buying them very inexpensively.

So yes, it's very much a middle class neighborhood [00:29:00] that was, yes, originally built by wealthy, Jersey Cityians, but occupied for the most part from the sixties on by very middle class families.

Nat Kalbach: You're currently actually working with the Sherwood Place neighborhood on historic designation, right? Can I say that?

Charlene Burke: Well, I was, but they, did, they, yes, I did help them with applying for a grant, the historic trust for their, to have their nomination written, but the city stepped up to the plate and said that they would pay for it. So that was something that went away. But other, yes, I was originally involved in helping them.

Nat Kalbach: Okay. That actually already answers the question because my question would've been, like how is that process different from our district's designation 10 years ago: the city stepped up [00:30:00] early.

Charlene Burke: They finally, because otherwise it was the community that was fundraising to actually do this themselves because the city did not seem to be a partner or interested. So the residents themselves were trying to put those protections in place, but the city said, oh, look at that. You already got them. They already paid for a portion of it and will just help finish it. So that was good to know.

Nat Kalbach: So. You have experience with grant writing and, have used that to help secure funding for numerous community projects. What advice would you give in general to neighborhood groups or community groups looking to fund their initiatives?

Charlene Burke: Well, they can always, the city, the city of Jersey City has a grant. [00:31:00] Has a contract with a grant concern that actually writes the grants, but they can always be on the lookout for say it's parks. They can sign up for DEP notices when grants are available, they can go to the library, and the library is a great resource that when I was young, it was utilized all the time by students.

Nowadays, since everybody has a cell phone and they have Google on their cell phone, they tend not to use the library as much, but yet, let me tell you, it is a wealth of information and gives you opportunity. That you personally don't have because they pay for subscriptions to, foundations, et cetera, and other organizations that will lead you into funding opportunities.

So everyone should go to the library and [00:32:00] explore with the librarian what opportunities there are to find funding for their projects.

Nat Kalbach: That is such a great tip. I think about the library all the time because I go to the library, but I haven't thought about it in terms of like finding, grants. That is, a very valuable tip.

So one of the questions that many people ask, when someone is interested in historic preservation, how do you balance respect for history with the need for neighborhoods to evolve and grow? We are in a city, things are changing and there's housing needed.

Charlene Burke: Well, I think, does all housing need to be saved, old housing needs to be saved? Not necessarily. My neighborhood has had many old homes knocked down back in the twenties and apartment buildings built where those big mansions used to exist. So where a large one family sit at one time is now a 35 or 36 building, but was done a lot more taste and flourish at the time.

Today, they just built boxes. Unfortunately, maxing out every square foot of property is consumed by the, by the building, as opposed to having front yards or a nice entry or a sunken garden that would make a delightful, visual to the street. That is not built into the finances of today's developer, unfortunately.

As well as many materials tend to be very inexpensive as opposed to the quality that existed when they were replacing these private homes with apartment buildings. So [00:34:00] I don't have a problem with major streets, corners, things like that. Certainly being the site of more density, but let's do it in a better way.

We just tend to allow for uncomplimentary development to go on in this city and, and even if you show up and share your opinions, it's just about getting the developer okayed so that he can build that apartment building and not necessarily about the beauty of how, how it fits into the neighborhood.

Nat Kalbach: That's a good point. So you have helped secure a grant for, historic preservation projects in Lincoln Park, but also you are on the Park Coalition and, I think the Boyd McGinness Park too. Right. So, that [00:35:00] connects your preservation with public spaces, but how do you see these green spaces fitting into the broader story of our neighborhoods?

Charlene Burke: Well, Lincoln Park is actually one of the reasons why our neighborhood developed the way it did. It drew a lot of investment into this area. When Lincoln Park was created, the park itself, the main body of the park, was known as West Side Park, and did exist west of West Side Avenue, but the county who acquired the park over time, made a connection between West Side Avenue and what was then Kennedy or Hudson Boulevard now Kennedy Boulevard, they made a connector to the Boulevard because that was the major road that went from the tip of Bayonne all the way to the very northern part of [00:36:00] North Bergen, so all of Hudson County has the boulevard going through it, and it was meant to be this very lovely promenade.

Lined with trees, something you went out and enjoyed a Sunday ride and that was what it was meant to be. And along it, there were several parks. Lincoln Park was one of them. As a result, it just attracted all of these investors to build these more prominent houses in this area.

It is key to our historic district, and while I worked for Hudson County as the grants administrator, I did make sure that the county was able to, secure a grant to plan for that upper part of the park, which is contained within the historic district. Not all of it is. Not the [00:37:00] entire park. Sadly, I would love for the rest of the park to be included, but it's only a small portion, and that actually is key because we have the Lincoln Monument there, which is very prominent, as well as two Sun Houses, which will shortly be restored to their original beauty, which is without all those.

Additions made in the seventies that make them very, they look like, massive buildings as opposed to the delicate gazebos that they once were. And so even with Boyd McGinness Park, it became the reason for its expansion was to keep people in this neighborhood. That otherwise would be looking at leaving an [00:38:00] apartment because now they're having children and they need an open space for their kids to work out that energy so that they could go to sleep at night. So the idea for Boyd McGuinness's expansion, which is only a few blocks from Lincoln Park, was to create a place for these children to work out their energy as well as seniors to enjoy watching the young people because as we all know, you age, you can't move around as much, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy the giggles, laughter, and activities of younger people.

It often, many seniors enjoy that. It makes them feel younger. So it was kind of promoted to the county and to the city as a multi-generational park, because the senior buildings are surrounding it. So many seniors go [00:39:00] there to sit in the sun and enjoy the outdoors as well as the children in the playground.

So it really is a blessing to have that in the neighborhood.

Nat Kalbach: Absolutely. Charlene, I know I have so many questions, but of all those, community initiatives, and I know this probably a really hard question and you can say no, I'm not gonna answer that. Which has brought you the most personal satisfaction and why?

Charlene Burke: I think it's the creation of the historic district. And that's because for one, I went to school in this area, I went to high school, I went to the Bergen School, which is actually in a, was in a building that is now sitting empty. Sad to say. [00:40:00] But that was you know, four years of my youth going and walking down these blocks, whether it was to Lincoln Park to go and play tennis because that was part of our gym, or it was walking to Journal Square, then to catch the bus to go back to Secaucus.

I spent a lot of time walking in this area, so I remember it back then. And what things have changed from then to the point in time that I was able to help it get to be a historic district. But I love the fact that many of this, many of these buildings have really interesting stories to tell about their occupants.

And these occupants were many times very much a part of the fabric of Jersey City's history. So I really think that once all of these stories are told or recorded, they're just gonna be an [00:41:00] incredible historic district, both in its architecture. And in its social fabric.

Nat Kalbach: Yeah, I agree. I'm happy that you did this, so I can totally say that. So I have two more questions for you. I wanna go back to the community, for one more second, because I know that's something that's very dear to your heart too. What advice would you give to someone who sees a need in their community, but doesn't know how to start making a change?

Charlene Burke: Well, that's hard because there could be many different needs, so you don't know exactly where to start. If you see a need, the first thing I would say is discover why the need even exists? What are some of the problems that are contributing to making this a need or what's lacking so that you can [00:42:00] understand why the current situation exists fully, and then you can reach out to your local council person.

I would say because sometimes they've had more experience in City government and might know of a department that you've never heard of, that might be the one that you could approach for a solution because again, not all of us, and believe me, even today, I don't know all the city departments that exist. Sometimes they just change their names. And you don't even realize what they actually do. It's not like we all as citizens get a directory of our municipal government that tells you what every single department does or has under its umbrella of responsibilities. So your council person is a very good one to start with getting much responsiveness from them. There are three others that you have available to you. They're called the A Large Council people, and many people do not even think to include them in their dialogue, but yet they are citywide in terms of [00:43:00] what they're supposed to be interested in and attending to. So you have them as well.

It never hurts to even before you are going to just when they get elected, never hurts to just call them up and make them aware of who you are and where you live. Hi, I am just saying hello. I'd just like you to know who I am, what I do, maybe what my profession is. If you ever need any advice on that and I can offer it to you, it never hurts to make that personal connection.

Before you ever need them, because ultimately they already know who you are. You're a familiar name, a familiar voice, a familiar face.

Nat Kalbach: That is an amazing tip, especially since 2025 here in Jersey City is a very big year in terms of elections. So I have one last question for you. If you Charlene could spend an afternoon with anyone from Jersey City's past, who would you, [00:45:00] want, who would you want it to be?

Which corner would you choose as your meeting spot and what one question would you ask them?

Charlene Burke: That was, that is, that is a difficult one because there were many people that I could think of that I would love to have a conversation with. But I think what I [00:45:00] would narrow it down to is I would like to have a conversation with my grandfather. His name was John Bobowicz. He was a member of the Inner Circle of the Hague Organization when Mayor Hague was in power.

But at some point, somewhere along the line, he fell out of favor with the Hague circle and started the opposition. And he was a representative to the Polish people in downtown Jersey City. His house, he owned two brick rows. They were located at 10th and Grove. Grove now being Manila Avenue, but at that time it was still Grove Street.

So I would like to meet him on that particular corner. [00:46:00] 'cause I would love to know what existed in that lot that I always played in as a kid. It was an empty lot next to my grandmother's house. But, I would love to ask him. About the Hague administration and why he fell out of favor with them and then joined the opposition because when that happened, they went from a family that had plenty and my grandmother had nine children.

So you can imagine it would be very difficult to provide for those nine kids. When her husband was no longer part of the inner circle, and then shortly thereafter he passed away. So I don't know all the circumstances of why he [00:47:00] passed away. It seemed he had an accident falling down stairs, so I don't know what kind of an accident that was.

But he was certainly well respected within his neighborhood and his community, and I would be very curious of his perceptions of politics at the time, given that Hague is such an icon of Jersey City politics in the past. And if I could just add a little interesting piece here. When I was at my mother's house one day, we were going through some older clips, newspaper clips that she had about her father, and I was looking through them just because I did not know him.

He passed away. When my mother was 16, let alone, so I never knew him at all, but when I was looking through the clips, one of the clips had, I happened to turn over. It was a clip out of the [00:48:00] Jersey Journal and it, the clips spoke about a meeting that was taking place at the Polish Club and then turned it over.

And on the other side was a short article about Karl Swensen, who was one of the owners of this house that I live in, and he had actually jumped into the Hudson River to save a person's life who had fallen out of a boat and he went and saved that person's life. So I thought it was very interesting that on this newspaper clip, one side was about my grandfather and the other was about the person whose house I was residing in, I

Nat Kalbach: Wow,

Charlene Burke: that was a

Nat Kalbach: is weirdly cool.

Charlene Burke: yes. That's how [00:49:00] I felt too.

Nat Kalbach: I love that so much. Thank you so much, Charlene. That was super interesting and I learned a lot again in our conversation. Many good tips and I learned more about you, which I always enjoy. Thank you again. Charlene.

Charlene Burke: Oh, thank you. It was such a pleasure as it always is to chat with you.

Nat Kalbach: Thank you Charlene for sharing your wisdom and stories with us today. Your reminder that persistence matters and that one person speaking up can spark change is something I will try to carry with me.

Talking with Charlene inspired me to look at our historic district with fresh eyes. These beautiful old buildings are still standing because neighbors came together and spoke up. If you are walking through Lincoln Park or along the treeline streets of our neighborhood, take a moment to notice how community [00:50:00] care has shaped these spaces.

And hey, maybe I'll see you at the next public meeting.

All links and resources from our conversations are in the show notes, along with my article, reflecting on what it means to find your voice in civic spaces.

Thank you for listening to Nat's Sidewalk Stories. I'm your host, Nat Kalbach. Join me next time as we continue exploring the people and places that make our communities unique. Our theme music is How You Amaze Me, composed by Jim Kalbach and performed by Jim Kalbach, Bryan Beninghove, Charlie Siegler and Pat Van Dyke.

You can find show notes, more information about my guests and related content at natkalbach.com. Until next time, keep exploring your sidewalk stories.[00:51:00]

Nathalie Kalbach